Unlike motor or household insurance for example, there are not too many players in the category of insurance we require. If adopted, I expect it will more than likely be the same cover taken up by ecskc.
Could a member of ecskc committee possibly scan or place a copy of their policy wording on the net with a link that will allow everyone to view the details/wording?
ISKA Committee Meet & Email
Re: ISKA Committee Meet & Email
Not so fast, Colin, slow down altogether. Do you not remember in school (a year or two ago now?) you were taught to take two or three situations and “compare and contrast”. So it is here. You will need to C&C ICU, the Easties, and one other at least, more likely two. It doesn’t take forever and though tedious it isn’t rocket science.
Last time I researched the ICU insurance maybe 10 years ago I was pleasantly surprised how much it had improved on the situation 20 years ago and so on, but it didn’t float my boat (pun intended), lack of peer to peer (shouldn’t that be pier to pier) and wooly about qualifications, difficult to get to grips with. I don’t have insider connectivity really any more with ICU, not to the same extent anyway, but surely someone listening does.
The Easties can produce their privately obtained model.
I spoke yesterday with an official of MCI (climbers) where I am still “well got” and asked about theirs. Apparently theirs covers peer to peer negligence and is “qualifications blind”. She wasn’t 100% sure of the first but absolutely certain of the second. If you think some paddlers residing in Cromwell’s alternative to Hell (and elsewhere, peace, peace …..) are qualifications averse, take up climbing. Even first aid certs are shunned. I am of that parish and I know them and that is the position. MCI wouldn’t tolerate, couldn’t tolerate, hike leaders needing formal training or qualifications to get the insurance because it would turn the whole thing on its head. They are worth enquiring with.
Until quite recently they used Perkins Slade as their broker. They changed a few years ago to an Irish provider who guaranteed to match PS. Why isn’t now recalled. PS are the numero uno in the UK providing cover for all sorts of adventure sports, always were, and when I say always, regrettably that is from first hand experience. I started hillwalking in 1964 and climbing proper in 1972. I got the bus pass Tuesday. It was said to me yesterday that you never had to explain a problem to PS twice, they understood. MCI are now with O’Driscoll O’Neill (Declan Troy) in (I think she said) Cork. Very pleased. No squabbling over there. Well, not about this, anyway.
Anyway I am off on my holliers now and I will be observing radio silence for a while. I hope you all inform yourselves adequately and everyone behaves while doing so. Remember always that Christmas is only just round the corner and only good children get to see Santa !
DWalsh
Last time I researched the ICU insurance maybe 10 years ago I was pleasantly surprised how much it had improved on the situation 20 years ago and so on, but it didn’t float my boat (pun intended), lack of peer to peer (shouldn’t that be pier to pier) and wooly about qualifications, difficult to get to grips with. I don’t have insider connectivity really any more with ICU, not to the same extent anyway, but surely someone listening does.
The Easties can produce their privately obtained model.
I spoke yesterday with an official of MCI (climbers) where I am still “well got” and asked about theirs. Apparently theirs covers peer to peer negligence and is “qualifications blind”. She wasn’t 100% sure of the first but absolutely certain of the second. If you think some paddlers residing in Cromwell’s alternative to Hell (and elsewhere, peace, peace …..) are qualifications averse, take up climbing. Even first aid certs are shunned. I am of that parish and I know them and that is the position. MCI wouldn’t tolerate, couldn’t tolerate, hike leaders needing formal training or qualifications to get the insurance because it would turn the whole thing on its head. They are worth enquiring with.
Until quite recently they used Perkins Slade as their broker. They changed a few years ago to an Irish provider who guaranteed to match PS. Why isn’t now recalled. PS are the numero uno in the UK providing cover for all sorts of adventure sports, always were, and when I say always, regrettably that is from first hand experience. I started hillwalking in 1964 and climbing proper in 1972. I got the bus pass Tuesday. It was said to me yesterday that you never had to explain a problem to PS twice, they understood. MCI are now with O’Driscoll O’Neill (Declan Troy) in (I think she said) Cork. Very pleased. No squabbling over there. Well, not about this, anyway.
Anyway I am off on my holliers now and I will be observing radio silence for a while. I hope you all inform yourselves adequately and everyone behaves while doing so. Remember always that Christmas is only just round the corner and only good children get to see Santa !
DWalsh
Re: ISKA Committee Meet & Email
Could I just take this oppurtunity to thank J Markham for his clarification. I always had him down as one of lifes gentlemen, still do. I though for a bit that his account had been hacked.
A great debate on here, very measured....hardly Fractious, quite the opposite I thought. I agree that all members ought to be given details of whatever insurane is proposed, all details not preambles or Glossaries of Terms.
Often times when facts are not divulged it is because the holder of said facts fears that the aforementioned facts are in fact not facts at all. Or perhaps, the holder of the facts does not actually know the facts, because they know somehow that to know the facts would in actual fact bring to light that the facts were in fact false facts.
It is simpler to have a piece of paper and to hope....or pray that it is not needed.
It probably is not needed, take the case of house ins. Your average ins co. will insure you if you have, window locks, patio door locks, mortice locks on hall doors, an alarm, a smoke alarm, a CO2 alarm, discount for a phonewatch alarm, further discount for cctv, further discount if you can watch cctv on your smart phone, Discounts but still a sizeable premium. So, when the company are relatively sure that no one can get into your house, they will insure you. It works, burgularies are down. Just an example,
So what is the detail, do we need in order to be insured, bilge pumps, electric pumps, non slip shoes (for the slipway) can we go into rocks in a carbon boat or is that negligence on the paddlers part, do we need a roll, on one side or both, the fine print....ALWAYS read the fine print...they are the FACTS.
I think insurance is a great thing, if it works, so many policies do not work, not the way that people want them to work, simply because people do not ask enough questions to ascertain the FACTS....and remember it is the INSUREDS duty to find out the facts, not the ins co to divulge them to you...this has been tested in courts...ignorance of the facts is not an excuse......just as ignorance of the law is not either.
On another note I have read a piece that says that "Cromwells Alternative" was actually Co. Clare, the better to keep the populace trapped between the Atlantic and the Shannon.....if that is true the only way out (you might fancy a spell in Hell, who knows ) was by boat...does that make Clare people better paddlers than the rest of the country...it's in the genes like???
A great debate on here, very measured....hardly Fractious, quite the opposite I thought. I agree that all members ought to be given details of whatever insurane is proposed, all details not preambles or Glossaries of Terms.
Often times when facts are not divulged it is because the holder of said facts fears that the aforementioned facts are in fact not facts at all. Or perhaps, the holder of the facts does not actually know the facts, because they know somehow that to know the facts would in actual fact bring to light that the facts were in fact false facts.
It is simpler to have a piece of paper and to hope....or pray that it is not needed.
It probably is not needed, take the case of house ins. Your average ins co. will insure you if you have, window locks, patio door locks, mortice locks on hall doors, an alarm, a smoke alarm, a CO2 alarm, discount for a phonewatch alarm, further discount for cctv, further discount if you can watch cctv on your smart phone, Discounts but still a sizeable premium. So, when the company are relatively sure that no one can get into your house, they will insure you. It works, burgularies are down. Just an example,
So what is the detail, do we need in order to be insured, bilge pumps, electric pumps, non slip shoes (for the slipway) can we go into rocks in a carbon boat or is that negligence on the paddlers part, do we need a roll, on one side or both, the fine print....ALWAYS read the fine print...they are the FACTS.
I think insurance is a great thing, if it works, so many policies do not work, not the way that people want them to work, simply because people do not ask enough questions to ascertain the FACTS....and remember it is the INSUREDS duty to find out the facts, not the ins co to divulge them to you...this has been tested in courts...ignorance of the facts is not an excuse......just as ignorance of the law is not either.
On another note I have read a piece that says that "Cromwells Alternative" was actually Co. Clare, the better to keep the populace trapped between the Atlantic and the Shannon.....if that is true the only way out (you might fancy a spell in Hell, who knows ) was by boat...does that make Clare people better paddlers than the rest of the country...it's in the genes like???
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Tony Power
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:16 pm
Re: ISKA Committee Meet & Email
If it's not broken don't fix it. it really is as simple as that. Whats the story with cyclists, hill walkers, mountain climbers. They've all needed Ambulances Fire service and air lifts. Just how often has a Kayaker needed these services.
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brianmacmahon
- Posts: 181
- Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:37 am
Re: ISKA Committee Meet & Email
The situation currently in ISKA is that we don't have;
- A Constitution
- Operating or Voting Procedures
- A health and Safety Statement or guidelines relating to same.
In fact we currently have no terms and conditions whatsoever.
BUT we are considering getting insurence
If we do agree to being covered by an insurence policy then all of the above will change with a number of proviso's ; the terms and conditions imposed on ISKA won't be drawn up by its members. NO they will be drawn up by an insurence company. It's those terms conditions and most importantly EXCLUSIONS that will be imposed on the membership. So before we throw the baby out with the bath water I would implore the committee members tasked with researching this to look at other options as an alternative to insurence. Don't let insurence be the ONLY option on the table.
I trust also that the committee members tasked with this are completely impartial. As they should be.
Mac
- A Constitution
- Operating or Voting Procedures
- A health and Safety Statement or guidelines relating to same.
In fact we currently have no terms and conditions whatsoever.
BUT we are considering getting insurence
If we do agree to being covered by an insurence policy then all of the above will change with a number of proviso's ; the terms and conditions imposed on ISKA won't be drawn up by its members. NO they will be drawn up by an insurence company. It's those terms conditions and most importantly EXCLUSIONS that will be imposed on the membership. So before we throw the baby out with the bath water I would implore the committee members tasked with researching this to look at other options as an alternative to insurence. Don't let insurence be the ONLY option on the table.
I trust also that the committee members tasked with this are completely impartial. As they should be.
Mac
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conorsmith
- Posts: 209
- Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:37 am
Re: ISKA Committee Meet & Email
Eh, two kayakers in Clare rescued in the last week... None of our lot, not ISKA, nor WISKA or not that anyone is saying (or been found out).
There is rumour though of one in the past calling on helicopter Rescue 115 and when all was in order did cheekily ask,
Anyhow, getting back to the insurance policy wording, I think it a good starting point to see what another group is using, having already done their research. Alan/Mick, I see you are both on ecskc committee. Could one of you possibly organise this? I will see what I can get from ICU.
Much appreciated and thanks.
ps Mr Walsh, having acquired your bus pass, can we assume CIE Tours will be the order of the day for your holidays?
There is rumour though of one in the past calling on helicopter Rescue 115 and when all was in order did cheekily ask,
And they did!!"dont suppose you could drop us and the kayaks back to our car on yonder pier"
Anyhow, getting back to the insurance policy wording, I think it a good starting point to see what another group is using, having already done their research. Alan/Mick, I see you are both on ecskc committee. Could one of you possibly organise this? I will see what I can get from ICU.
Much appreciated and thanks.
ps Mr Walsh, having acquired your bus pass, can we assume CIE Tours will be the order of the day for your holidays?
Last edited by conorsmith on Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: ISKA Committee Meet & Email
Actually I haven’t gone away you know ………………….. I lied. I promise I go Monday morning for certain.
So meantime if someone says something engaging (Tony, I suspect you are going to get hit soon, between the eyes?) or I hear something new of constructive benefit to the discussion (OK, OK, I admit I prefer plain stirring it), then I just have to input.
MCI came back to me today to add BCU to the list. She doesn’t know if Perkins Slade do for BCU still. It was explained that “simple” insurance (like say car driving) depends on critical mass. Have the insurance and there are no rules, you crash and they burn. Imagine that the few payouts for the few bad guys are easily paid for by the many payins by the many good guys, and its simply a numbers game.
BCU may have critical mass. Lots of canoeists over there? MCI have critical mass. 9,000 members. Every single one of them compulsorily paying whatever, say €30 p.a. Join an MCI affiliated club anywhere in Ireland and you pay the sub to the club and the premium to MCI. Win, win, If its unconditional, it’s a steal.
If its really that simple it’s a no-brainer. So why do I get an itch in my hip like when ………..
New Zealand occurred to me today as well. Isn’t sea kayaking the second national sport there, after rugby. They are Ireland sized.
DW
So meantime if someone says something engaging (Tony, I suspect you are going to get hit soon, between the eyes?) or I hear something new of constructive benefit to the discussion (OK, OK, I admit I prefer plain stirring it), then I just have to input.
MCI came back to me today to add BCU to the list. She doesn’t know if Perkins Slade do for BCU still. It was explained that “simple” insurance (like say car driving) depends on critical mass. Have the insurance and there are no rules, you crash and they burn. Imagine that the few payouts for the few bad guys are easily paid for by the many payins by the many good guys, and its simply a numbers game.
BCU may have critical mass. Lots of canoeists over there? MCI have critical mass. 9,000 members. Every single one of them compulsorily paying whatever, say €30 p.a. Join an MCI affiliated club anywhere in Ireland and you pay the sub to the club and the premium to MCI. Win, win, If its unconditional, it’s a steal.
If its really that simple it’s a no-brainer. So why do I get an itch in my hip like when ………..
New Zealand occurred to me today as well. Isn’t sea kayaking the second national sport there, after rugby. They are Ireland sized.
DW
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brianmacmahon
- Posts: 181
- Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:37 am
Re: ISKA Committee Meet & Email
Indeed D Walsh - New Zealand.
They have similar population and coastline to us.
Surely to God they have comprehensive Insurence.
Answer to that - NO ! It would appear they have a very similar system to the one we have now.
That being none.
Cool website though ! We could learn from that !!
http://www.kask.org.nz
Mac
They have similar population and coastline to us.
Surely to God they have comprehensive Insurence.
Answer to that - NO ! It would appear they have a very similar system to the one we have now.
That being none.
Cool website though ! We could learn from that !!
http://www.kask.org.nz
Mac
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Chris McDaid
- Posts: 169
- Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2014 7:35 pm
Re: ISKA Committee Meet & Email
Just had a look at Canoeing Ireland website under the insurance tab. Wahey!!! As a member I'm already covered for third party liability. Anyone else? 
Cheers,
Chris
Cheers,
Chris
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john.ruston
- Posts: 39
- Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2014 11:51 pm
Re: ISKA Committee Meet & Email
Likewise us CANI members in the north - but to risk labouring the point yet again - many of us already have global cover via our domestic public liability insurance.
It could pay folk to check the small print of their property insurance (for example) to see what nice extras come with the package. As I said somewhere above, the underwriters should be happy to confirm the extent of cover and certify this in writing. What's so special about the BCU / CI product ? Seems that as private sea tourers a lot of us don't need it.
Has anyone else checked this out ?
It could pay folk to check the small print of their property insurance (for example) to see what nice extras come with the package. As I said somewhere above, the underwriters should be happy to confirm the extent of cover and certify this in writing. What's so special about the BCU / CI product ? Seems that as private sea tourers a lot of us don't need it.
Has anyone else checked this out ?